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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
379
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 01:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Looks like diplomacy was too much effort for you. I suggest you get someone else to do this properly, your report and dare I suggest even the possibility of any investigation ever happenining, is a complete farce.
If you wanted to bully around a non combat neutral organisation, you didn't need to go to such ridiculous lengths. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
381
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 10:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thgil Goldcore wrote:Also, I find it amusing that those who are most against this also are the people who are likely receiving weapons or crew from these people.
Then hear it from a neutral point of view. You're being an idiot and digging your hole further.
Thgil Goldcore wrote:As laid out prior, and apparently ignored. The mere idea of having hostile forces take part of the investigation is absurd.
It's not absurd they spectate, you just don't like it. Huge difference there, and you've failed to give any logical reason as to why it'd be so crazy a notion. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
381
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 11:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:who are proven enemies of a certain government
Nothing has actually been proven though, this entire report is based on a hunch. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
381
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 16:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Kalaratiri wrote:I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?
Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue? There would have been no issue with impartial observers, but pilots who are current war targets or considered KOS can hardly be described as that. So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.
My concern is any neutral candidate who put their name forward would be dismissed by either side for petty or illogical reasons. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
382
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 15:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.
Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
382
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 16:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.
Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care. Pay close attention to what Captain Blake is demanding and suggesting; that these rescue people should be returned to their "rightful owners." He is demanding their "present locations." This isn't about investigating abandonment on the part of PIE members. This is about what PIE member perceive as their "property rights." This is not a matter of negotiation and diplomacy. This is a matter of not violating our core values. Captain Blake says, "efforts should have been made to return them to their owners." This is anathema to who we are and we will do nothing that would assist anyone in doing the same. That is why this is not a matter of negotiation. As to a manifest: Are you aware that the only record we have when we rescue former slaves is the name and information of the pilot transporting those individuals? The names of the original holders are unknown to us unless the rescued people choose to reveal it. We publicly publish those on our Wall of Shame. PIE may wish to contact those myriads of pilots if they wish to find the names of the original holders.
So, just so I'm clear on this myself, you stated how some of these abandoned civilians were rescued from being left by pilots of PIE Inc. earlier. Did you get this information from your wall of shame? If so then I suppose it makes the Admiral's job significantly easier.
I'm well aware of what the Admiral is demanding, I suggested you merely give him the names of the pilots in PIE that were found to have abandoned innocent lives. That's giving him a small amount of information at no risk, without going the whole hog. It's all about negotiation and each side appeasing the other.
Edit: Without even giving their current locations, you could list simply what was recovered and from where and when. Current detail as to their location should be irrelevant. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
382
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 16:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Manwe Todako wrote: I do not know if any of them are members of PIE.
Your earlier post suggested otherwise, I advise being certain of such facts before using them here. PIE take allegations such as this very seriously.
Quote:Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.
I'm aware. You can still deny him that while at least assisting his internal investigation into the actions of PIE Pilots as an appeasement. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
384
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 20:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.
I believe an apology was made when I highlighted this issue earlier.
However for slaves handled outside of your corporation, I would question to what business it is of yours. PIE Inc are still demanding an extreme amount here on multiple fronts, and offering nothing in exchange for compliance. Your subordinate may be new to negotiations Admiral but I know you're better than this. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
384
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 21:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Manwe Todako wrote: Perhaps we have been unclear about our Matriculation program. When we say "Matriculation Program" that is short for "Emancipation and Matriculation Program." You will see this if you research the beginning announcement of the opening of our first Center. We rescue "former slaves" wherever they may be found and from whomever.
The Disciples of Ston unequivocally state that NO ONE IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING period! When we rescue and emancipate these individuals we ARE returning them to their rightful owners, THEMSELVES!
Now, as of yet, we have not directly rescued any former slaves from battlefields, but we hope to do so in the future. We have received rescued slaves from other pilots who have done so, and we have receive testimony from rescued slaves of their work on board battle vessels.
In answer to your demands to provide detailed information on the former slaves we have rescued, the answer is NO. We will die and our spirits will return to the Maker before we ever allow those we rescue to return to slavery.
You said, that you rescue them wherever they may be found. However, you must understand, that taking slaves form 'wherever' IF they are still someone's property, and that someone DIDN'T give you permission to take these slaves, is considered a THEFT. Even if you take them in territories where slaves are illegal cargo, this is still a THEFT. From my point of view, theft is one of the most severe and dirtiest forms of crime. Thieves took others property, who worked hard to acquire it, and thieves don't have balls to fight owners like pirates do. I think that all thieves deserve capital punishment wherever they are detected, and I am ready to put an end to them even if I violate law myself by doing it. If you in fact have any slaves, that you took from PIE and they are requesting to return them, you MUST compensate. Even if you gave slaves to their 'rightful owner' (freed), you still took some property from their previous owner, that you MUST return. If you can't return slaves, then pay their EXACT average market price or pay with other goods of equal value if previous owner will accept these goods as payment. Even if you didn't steal yourself, but merely accepted stolen property from someone else, you MUST compensate it for previous owner, by either returning stolen goods or paying with money/other goods.
Interesting allegation. Do you have proof that these containers were infact left as owned property as opposed to the pilots declaring them legally abandoned and free for all? |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
388
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 16:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ran'shad wrote:I would have expected the Disciples to be more vocal on this topic.....and yet we have not heard fromthem for several days now. This is very uncharacteristic of them, as they seem to love to blather on ad nauseum at the drop of a hat. What has changed??? Why the sudden silence? What are they up to?
I would humbly suggest that the matriculation centres be put under ongoing and covert observation, as the disciples are so fond of saying they (the centres) are run by their own councils.....what is stopping them from the councils - in the spirit of self-determination - have not chosen to arm and prepare to fight any effort by Amarrian authorities to inspect them?
Poor form, a bit of simple forum reading would answer that question for you.
Also Admiral Blake, since when was it your duty to police other corporations in regards to theft and property? Surely if the party who discarded these rescued people feel grieved they'd have done something about it themselves.
You're trying to justify little more than the concept of shooting fish in a barrel. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
388
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 17:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Ran'shad wrote:I would have expected the Disciples to be more vocal on this topic.....and yet we have not heard fromthem for several days now. This is very uncharacteristic of them, as they seem to love to blather on ad nauseum at the drop of a hat. What has changed??? Why the sudden silence? What are they up to?
I would humbly suggest that the matriculation centres be put under ongoing and covert observation, as the disciples are so fond of saying they (the centres) are run by their own councils.....what is stopping them from the councils - in the spirit of self-determination - have not chosen to arm and prepare to fight any effort by Amarrian authorities to inspect them? Poor form, a bit of simple forum reading would answer that question for you. As far as I know, their vow of silence does not extend to private communications. They could easily take measures to resolve this. But I've heard nothing from them. Their silence speaks volumes. It appears that they're perfectly happy to hide behind their Shaokorite shills, which doesn't do anything to dispel the idea that they're little more than a front organisation for an underground monorail.
You still need to find evidence for such accusations though, I've found "having a hunch" doesn't go as far to proving anything, even if you're right afterwards. It tends to get you labelled as reckless and various other insults about your judgemental capacities.
In this I believe diplomacy has failed on both sides and burned the bridge rather hard at both ends. I suggest a neutral middleman at this point that both sides approve of to handle this discussion further, as it seems direct contact has little effect more than trying to relight the charred remains of what bridge their was.
Also the language used here by either side is hardly a great tone of showing a will to use diplomacy, I suppose that was doomed from the start with the terrible efforts of first contact by one side, and the manner which it was handled by the other though. |

Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
389
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 19:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Rek Jaiga wrote:I've been reading through here and while I (of course) agree with my comrades, I have an entirely different point to raise.
Not to doubt the incredible capabilities of PIE Inc, but shouldn't this be left to the MIO? Or do you doubt your own government's prowess in investigating even capsuleers? I'm quite certain if the Disciples of Ston were breaking Imperial law they'd have been arrested, kicked out of Empire space, or at least added to the Amarr Imperial Navy's kill-on-sight list.
In high sec. I'm sure that you'd be the first to agree with me that the authorities would only come down on criminals in areas where they patrol - ie high sec. Using basic logic, one knows that if the cops are not there to see you, they will not take action.
And do the Disciples get shot by the authorities in high sec? |
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